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Hi, welcome to Street Fighter Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Kikosho page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! General Awesomo (talk) 04:23, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

On Vacuums and True Voids Edit

The thing about transliterating Shinkuu Hadoken or Shinkuu Tatsumaki as "Vacuum Surge Fist" or "Vacuum Tornado Kick" is that you not only lose the metaphorical context that links it with "Mu" or the "Power of Nothingness", you're also replacing it with a new context of thinking of "Vacuum" as an actual "material" vacuum with suction properties like you mentioned before. When in actuality the context of vacuum that's being used is one that describes outer space itself.

Me seeing "Shinkuu" as being the "True Void" is a more literal description of vacuum and keeps the context of how people view space as a "void". It's more befitting for both the Shinkuu Hadoken and Tatsumaki as it not only hints at the "Mu" but ultimately what the power truly is. They're techniques which are based on a power which draws upon the vast infinite of the vacuum of space itself, not that it has vacuum properties which suck the opponent into the technique or ki into the user's hand.

1.vacuum; a region of space that contains no matter; a void.

1.vacuum 2.void 3.the sky the heaven(s)

Also, the point about it being transliterated as "Vacuum" for 20 years lets not forget Rolento's name was supposed to be Lawrence, Blanka should be Blanca, Decapre should be Dekabre', and so on and so forth. Point is just because they've made something "official" for the last 20 years doesn't necessarily make it correct.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakframan (talkcontribs)

Honestly, what you're disagreeing with are facts. Doing a quick Search on any search engine of the characters "真空" and you'll more than likely find that the first interpretation of these characters is as the vacuum of space,  or a depiction of something depicting space; ie a gap or a hole. Here's a link below.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E7%9C%9F%E7%A9%BA&oq=%E7%9C%9F%E7%A9%BA&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61j69i60l2&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There's nothing that would suggest these characters imply a force of suction like a vacuum. The characters themselves are literally

True

Sky (aka the heavens, or the void, or however you want to suggest a massive amount of empty space)

Also to address your second point. Just because Gouken doesn't use Shinkuu techniques doesn't mean he doesn't have access to them. Characters have access to moves in earlier games they loose in later games and then regain further in the established canon; ie Ryu's Red fireball in SFV returning to him in SFIII. Furthermore, like I had previously established before

空 this character can be seen as Sky, or void, or empty

it carries the same connotation as Gouken's 無  (nothingness, void, sky )

which can carry the same connotation as Akuma's 天 ( Sky, heavens)

they're one in the same in meaning Sky (aka void, or heaven,  or however you want to describe a large amount of empty space.)

Basically, it's all of their opinions on the same matter of following the way of the warrior.

The philosophy behind the "True Void" is also connected to the ancient way of the samurai, which is exactly what Gouken, Gouki, and Ryu all follow in their own sort of way. It's a warriors code or the art of Budo. And since the Hado is supposed to be influenced by feelings and intent it would only make sense that a well-founded philosophy like "Mu" would go hand in hand with what Gouken's teaching.

http://www.bookoffiverings.com/emptinessbook.htm

Empty intent = Mu no Hado

Malicious intent = Satsui no Hado

All of Gouken's style revolves around "Mu", as that's what he used to counteract Satsu no Hado out of the original style. There isn't any one specific attack that uses it, if anyone is practicing under Gouken's specific style then they're using "Mu" throughout. From regular Hado and Shoryu's to whatever special they can come up with. 

Mu is the antithesis of SnH, and just like SnH can be molded into more powerful techniques like Messatsu Gohado or Shungokusatsu, so too can Mu be molded into Shinkuu Hadoken, Denjin Hadoken, or Shin Shoryuken, or even Shinryuekn from Ken as he's trained in "Mu" under Gouken because that's what the default style is based on.

But I digress to the original subject of voids and vacuums, there's nothing to suggest given the Japanese context of the character used for "vacuum" 真空, that "vacuum" holds the connotation of meaning something like a Hoover or a Dyson. It's meant to imply that the force that's being used is one that's of infinite power which rivals the vastness of space itself, not that it sucks you into.

In fact, Ryu tells you what the context should be taken as in Street Fighter 3

Ryu when he wins with Shinkuu Hadoken in 'SFIING'/SI: "The ultimate form of wave motion attack... Shinkuu... the power of vacuum energy!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

Vacuum energy is literally the background energy of the Universe. It's the theorized free energy which physicists dream about in science labs. 


In conclusion, Shinkuu means "vacuum" as in space or a void, not as a  vacuum cleaner which sucks things in.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakframan (talkcontribs)

Yes because 真空 in the context of everyday speaking manner would hold the connotation of vacuum. But as we all know, Ryu is a martial artist as well, therefore, when he speaks about 真空 "vacuum", it also holds the connotation of being perceived from a martial artist's standpoint with all the philosophical meaning attached, otherwise, Ryu and Gouken wouldn't be bringing it up all the time anyway. Thus, the 真空 holding the meaning of "True void" or just  "Void" also work along with "vacuum" as the void is more or less describing the properties of a vacuum; ie empty space.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%9C%9F%E7%A9%BA


  1. (Martial arts) a philosophy; when exercised, the power of the Void allows one to connect to the quintessential creative energy of the world. A martial arts practitioner, who is properly attuned into the 'Void', can sense their surroundings, the presences of others, and to act without thinking and without using their physical senses, via this mindstate of inner peace.


Yes, a tornado can be viewed as a void in the sky, but the properties of a void allow for the attracting force of two objects; ie empty space rapidly being filled due to pressure differences between the void and the area of matter around it.

I want to get the connotation of "vacuum" out of Shinkuu and have it broken down to its literal components of "true" and "void" because of the fact in the western world a "vacuum" is seen synonymously with a "vacuum cleaner"  or just the act of suction in general. Thus, when I in the Shinkuu Tatsumaki description on the wiki saying that the suction properties of the move are described in the name, Shinkuu = Vacuum, I couldn't help myself but to edit it and make it more fitting in the context of the martial arts meaning of "Void" which is more synonymous with Gouken's "Nothing", and also holds the same connotation as Akuma's "Sky"


Although vacuum is correct, it doesn't hold the up front and obvious connotation to an English reader as "true void" would when describing "space", which is why I decided to use it.


Also to answer you question about "Ten" being translated as "Invincible", I would use "Mu" as it describes something insurmountable. "Ten" can be used to describe something great, but more or less limited in some aspect.


Invincible in Japanese literally translates to "no enemies" 無敵

天敵 would be "natural enemy"; a bird's a natural enemy to insects and worms.

While a natural enemy may seem insurmountable and "invincible" in relationship to its prey, it's only "invincible in that relative aspect.

Something that is 無敵 describes an invincible that is to mean impervious to all regardless of the relationship; ie think of a force, like gravity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakframan (talkcontribs)


You can't just look at it from a western angle because you're missing the whole context of why it should be "True void" rather than "vacuum" You're missing the point, there's no supposed to be a verb describing "Vacuum" or "void". The character "ku" or 空 is the same character used in "karate"  空手 meaning "Empty hand". If you were to look up 真空手 on Google you might find something that looks like this. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E7%9C%9F%E7%A9%BA%E6%89%8B&biw=1366&bih=681&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuvp3a5KzNAhWnz4MKHYkJB7AQ_AUIBygA&dpr=1


By your logic, this would mean "Vacuum hand", which it technically can be seen as, but a Japanese reader or Google at least will take it's best meaning as "True Karate" or "True Empty Hand".

Likewise, when viewing Shinkuu 真空 in the context of Ryu's Shinkuu Hadoken or Shinkuu Tatsumaki it should carry the connotation of "True Empty" or better yer "True Void".

Karate overseas is intrinsically tied to these philosophies throughout its history.

http://seinenkai.com/articles/heshiki/karate.html

Many, however, interpreted Karate to mean only "empty hand" or "weaponless hand." It should not be interpreted as such. The particular character, Kara (void or emptiness) does not just imply empty of something or lacking something, hence, "weaponless hand" is wrong.

An analysis of the ancient Chinese ideographic character Kara will show its Buddhist connotative meaning which goes beyond "weaponless hand." Kara, also read as Ku, originates from Sunya, the small ellipsoid known as zero in mathematics. Sunya or Sunyata is the Sanskrit term for void, emptiness, or the absence of duality and conceptualization. Chinese Zen masters transcribedSunyata in their scriptures as Kara or Ku, which is also the first character of Karate.

All things spring out of Ku, but Ku is not a "thing." It is something like a mirror. Although nothing exists in a mirror, it is possible to reflect everything in it; therefore, Ku is depicted as the wisdom of all existence, represented by the Great Mirror of Wisdom (Dai-En-Kyo-Chi). Ku envelops everything; nothing is opposed to it. Ku neither rejects nor confronts anything, but at the same time is the perfection of existence. A man who masters Ku will be filled with the life and strength of wisdom. The man must turn himself into a puppet in the hands of the Unconscious, or True Self, where the Unconscious precedes the "consciousness." Metaphysically speaking, this is the philosophy of Ku (emptiness). Emptiness does not mean "relativity," or "phenomenality," or "nothingness;" rather, it means the Absolute, or something transcendental. It is not the idea that one aims ultimately to become a mere perfect technician but rather to be able to immerse oneself totally in every motion, whereby one transcends duality.  One who trains seriously in Karate must throw away his small "self" to realize his True Self which is Ku. Even though one of the major aims of the Karate practitioner is to be able to execute every motion accurately, the artist has this stage to break through, that is, transcending duality and throwing away of the small "self" to realize True Self or Ku.

The ultimate techniques of the martial artist must be based on what emanates from Ku. That is why the Zen master Takuan never tired of stressing the doctrine of "emptiness" (Ku - Sunyata) to his student, the sword master Yagyu-Tajima-no-Kami.

Ku is the metaphysics of Mushin-no-Shin (Mind-of-No-Mind) and also what another master, Yamaoka Tesshu, disciplined his students by when he urged them to experience this Zen doctrine by saying "sword-of-no-sword."

The Shinkuu doesn't describe an action or a verb, but it describes what the Hadoken is powered by and the philosophy behind it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakframan (talkcontribs)


When you say Vacuum as a verb then I assume you mean in the case of the Shinkuu Tatsukami description on this wiki where it's stated


Ryu performs a stationary Tatsumaki that has a vacuum effect, as its name indicates, and can hit the opponent multiple times.

and also

The vacuum effect works via an invisible pull boundary that can drag a foe within said boundary closer, rendering them vulnerable in the process (thus extending the move's range).


And while these may be accurate descriptions of how these moves function onscreen, so do moves like Akuma's EX Tatsu, which isn't aptly named "Shinkuu". The pulling "vacuum" effect is a result of the techniques no doubt, but that's already covered in the name description of Tastumaki which is a "whirlwind". A whirlwind not only blows things, but also pulls thing in closer to it, and both Akuma (in SF4) and Ryu can pull off the stationary Tatsumaki  has this effect. 

Also in the Shinkuu Hadoken article, there is no reasoning behind as to why it's called the "Vacuum" like there is on the Shinkuuu Tatsumaki page. Because the move doesn't have a "vacuum" effect, as all "ki projectile" moves behave in the same fashion where the energy is pulled and gathered  into a focal point before release. So that begs the question as to what you mean by "vacuum" as a verb because the vacuum isn't supposed to describe an action to be understood as a verb. 

This is why I feel that at the very least the whole "vacuum" effect description should be removed because that's not what the move's name supposed to entail. Which is why I included "True Void" as the move is supposed to be more or less referencing Gouken's "nothingness", or just the Void in general. The "Shinkuu" techniques are supposed to be the penultimate attacks of Gouken's art in terms of "ki" use. They are the perfect forms Ansatsuken that utilize 100% of "vacuum energy", as opposed to the regular Ansatsuken techniques which can be converted over to full "SnH energy" in the form of "Metsu" or "Messatsu".

The quote about Shinku in Japanese SF3 specifically translates to

波動も究めれば 、 真空 と 化す !

Pushing Hado to its limit, turns it into vacuum (true void)

So it's the ultimate form of Hadoken Gouken developed (save for Denjin which is just highly concentrated Hado)

Vacuum shouldn't be understood as a verb when describing "Shinkuu", but a noun or an adjective. The thing about this is in the Western world, the word vacuum is seen synonymously with the verb, and while Shinkuu Tastsumaki may have a "suction" effect against the opponents, the name does not mean "vacuum" as a verb to be understood in that manner.

It means empty, nothingness, or void, and while vacuum can also cover this meaning as well, I feel English readers should get the metaphysical connotation behind "vacuum" to better understand its meaning as a noun or adjective. In the sense that since the Shinkuu Tatsumaki article is misleading when trying to describe the move then link it with its name description, I feel that the "True Void" meaning would fit better all around to help relay the true meaning behind it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakframan (talkcontribs)


The thing is you can't go around stating the game mechanics as a function thats stated in the name in the move. That's conjecture. Like I had given an example above, Akuma has the same stationary like Ryu's Shinkuu Tatsumaki, which functions exactly like a Shinkuu Tastumaki only it's still Akuma's EX Tasumakizankuukyaku. Shinkuu Hadoken doesn't hold you in place for 5 hits, that's a game mechanic which all multi-hitting fireballs have the potential to do.

Shinkuu isn't supposed to be a verb describing an action. Unlike the Shakunetsu Hadoken, or Denjin Hadoken which describe what the Hadoken represents; ie fire or electricity, Shinkuu doesn't represent an action because like I mentioned before, it's the Ultimate Hadoken. That's it end of story.

It's the Hadoken pushed to the utmost limit without falling vicitm to the SnH. There's no verb to describe it as it functionally hasn't changed its form to electricity, flame, or SnH, to shock, scorch, or annihilate. It's still a pure Hadoken, albeit more powerful.

The only reason why I would use the Japanese transliteration of vacuum is because the characters of True and Void make it up. A vacuum is supposed to be represented as something "truly empty", but only in front of a Western audience will you have the meaning imply it as "vacuum cleaner" which has the properties of suction.

This is not the meaning behind it no matter how much conjecture you put behind the moves description of how its "vacuum effect pulls opponents inward"

That's just not the way it's supposed to be understood.

So yes I agree with your proposal on putting both (真空波動拳 Shinkuu Hadouken?, "Vacuum/True Void Surge Fist")  for a better understanding to what the word vacuum implies in both the actual sense and in the  warrior philosophy sense that  Ryu would view it in as a martial artist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakframan (talkcontribs)

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